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    Hearthstone [Week 254] Tavern Brawl end-of-week discussion (with Strawpoll!)

    April 29, 2020

    Hearthstone [Week 254] Tavern Brawl end-of-week discussion (with Strawpoll!)

    [Week 254] Tavern Brawl end-of-week discussion (with Strawpoll!)

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 12:25 AM PDT

    Strawpoll here: https://www.strawpoll.me/19897889

    Hello r/hearthstone, 254th Brawl comes to an end, so let's have a discussion about it.

    This weeks Tavern Brawl was a repeat of Battle of Tol Barad, where each minion you've played gave you a random spell of the same cost, but for free.

    Did you enjoy it? Why or why not? Any memorable moments? Would you like to see a similar brawls in the future? Discuss below.

    5 previous threads | strawpolls:
    Week 253 | Strawpoll (Boom Bots №2)
    Week 252 | Strawpoll (Kael'thas Effect)
    Week 251 | Strawpoll (Rumble Run PvP №2)
    Week 250 | Strawpoll (Co-op vs Mechazod №3)
    Week 249 | Strawpoll (Three Wishes №2)

    submitted by /u/FardHast
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    Succubus should return as a balanced card.

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 08:23 AM PDT

    Difference between unbalanced and balanced

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 09:21 AM PDT

    The Demon Hunter Effect: How it Dictates Everything on Ladder

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 06:19 AM PDT

    The Demon Hunter Effect: How it Dictates Everything on Ladder

    Hey everyone Zeddy here (You can catch this post in video form here),

    It's been a while now since we had the most recent nerf wave in Hearthstone and Demon Hunter specifically has been nerfed seven times, yet still remains not only the best class in the game, but it still keeps almost the entirety of classes out of the game. If you look at this infographic here you can see that Demon Hunter, in terms of popularity, is played more than Shaman, Warrior, Paladin, Warlock, and Druid combined and still maintains a win rate of well over 54% whilst the former all have sub 50% win rates across the board. So what exactly is going on? What is the fundamental problem with Demon Hunter that keeps as such a powerhouse that has effectively kept seven classes entirely out of the game?

    If you look at my matchup spread from Legend Ranks 1000 - 100 over the past four days you will see that I have faced 80% of the same matchups. Rogue, Warrior, and Demon Hunter with Rogue and Demon Hunter being the 2 most popular classes. During this period I faced only 1 Paladin, 4 Priests, ZERO shamans and the most popular class out of the big three was Mage at 12 in a total of nearly 200 games. This class disparity is what I like to call The Demon Hunter Effect.

    The Demon Hunter Effect

    What is the Demon Hunter effect? Simply Demon Hunter is so highly tuned, it's so good at what it does, only specific counter strategies can defeat it of which there are mainly two. You either build a deck that can consistently clear the board while healing or gaining armor, which is what warrior does relatively well and thus at high legend sees play, as well as priest to a lesser extent. Or you scam them with insane mana cheat and/or high rolls such as with Rogue or Mage with cards such as Edwin, Heistbaron Toggwaggle, Dragon Caster, Power of Creation, Yogg's Puzzle Box and so on. If your deck cannot do either of these things you cannot compete with Demon Hunter. Want to play a midrange strategy? You lose. Want to play an aggro deck? You lose. Want to play a control deck that doesn't gain excessive amounts of health or armor? You lose. Demon Hunter dictates the entire meta in this regard, this one class determines everything.

    Why does Demon Hunter cause this? Quite simply because it does everything better then every class in the game. Every minion is upside on top of upside. You get a 1 mana 2/1 that draws a card, you get a 2 mana 3/2 that tutors your next draw (exclusive to Demon Hunter), you get the cheapest and most versatile lifesteal in the game in Eye Beam, you get the best draw + mana cheat in the game with Skull of Gul'dan (it's better than nourish WITH the quest active), you get the best control card in the game with Glaives of Azzinoth that can also push insane damage. You get a better version of Ragnaros, which can be run 2x in your deck in Priestess of Fury and it can be cheated out for 5 mana on a consistent basis. You get the best reach spell in the game with Metamorphosis. Pyroblast once was 8 mana and was nerfed to 10 because it was too powerful, this costs 7 in total and can be used in a much more versatile manner. You have Altruis which is Flamewaker on steroids which can clear the board, kill your opponent, and develop for super cheap as cards like Twinslice which is an even better version of backstab/pounce which can help you abuse it amongst other things.

    There's also the issue of the class breaking the rules of Hearthstone. We've been taught that taunts should keep you alive, they have even gone as far as Hall of Faming Spellbreaker and nerfing Ironbeak Owl to enforce this. Then they print Kayn and a 1 mana silence + draw a card for Demon Hunter. We've been taught cards like Ragnaros are unfun and unhealthy for the game and then make Priestess of Fury which is a strictly better Ragnaros as it deals 6 damage split randomly amongst enemies (better than one target), can attack, is not a legendary, and can be cheated out. They break the rules of class identity by simply not giving Demon Hunter a class weakness outside of maybe card generation, everything else the class can do and better than everything else. It simply exists on a higher level then all the other nine classes in the game, and a ton of the over tuned and insane cards aren't even used.

    The Hero Power Problem

    Despite all of this, it's not even what's the most broken part of the class. The hero power is one of the biggest problems nobody is talking about. Do you remember Genn Greymane? Do you remember why he was so broken? A one mana hero power ensures you almost never have a bad turn. You always squeeze in a hero power, and your hero power insanely synergizes with so many things whether it's Glaivebound Adept, Battlefiend, Satyr Overseer, etc. It makes it so you rarely have a bad turn which automatically gives you a huge advantage over all nine classes. I'm not against a one mana hero power, but when you're the only class that gets this advantage it's going to be inherently unfair and lead to negative things. Also keep in mind with Genn Greymayne you had the deck restriction of only running even cards in your deck for a one mana hero power, this is untrue with Demon Hunter. Yes the hero power is less powerful than all of the Genn one mana hero powers, but the consistency outweighs this by a huge degree.

    How to fix this?

    So, what do you do to fix this? There's two options. You overhaul the class, you scale everything back to be within reason of every other class in the game. Make it so not every minion is overtuned, not every card is undercosted with an insane effect. You change the hero power to 2 mana to make it on the same level as every other class, make it give your hero +2 attack. It's not a one or two card nerf that will do this, it's a complete rework as we have seen 7 cards barely make a dent to the class because the class is fundamentally over tuned and overpowered when compared to its nine counterparts.

    The other option is to buff every other class to be at a similar level to Demon Hunter. Every class gets great draw options, every class gets insanely over tuned minions, every class gets a one mana hero power. No class has a true class weakness, every class gets to do everything at a powerful level. However if you go down this road then everything will be broken, and thus everything will play out the same. The uniqueness of classes will be gone, and the whole reason we love and enjoy playing Hearthstone, building unique decks, will be thrown out the window. Demon Hunter is an indicator of this as almost every Demon Hunter game plays out the exact same way since every card is so highly tuned and efficient there's no need to deviate from the same strategy every single game.

    Conclusion

    Blizzard took a risk adding a new class, and unfortunately not all risks pay off, at least not immediately. There was short term excitement, but overall the class seems to be damaging the reputation of the game in the long run. Reddit posts are plentiful in frustration over the class, I've had multiple friends and viewers of mine outright quit the game because they're forced to either play Demon Hunter or a specific strategy in order to maybe compete against it, and this is just not fun for them. I'm at the point personally where I just turn my brain off when I face a Demon Hunter, accept the fact that I'm going to lose because I'm playing a deck I want to play that can beat everything else other than Demon Hunter, and just hope I get lucky and win and find a new game against a class that actually exists within the rules of Hearthstone. To force players to have an expectation of winning only if they are forced into these very limited strategies is a true tragedy of the current Hearthstone meta.

    Hearthstone is at its best when it encourages players to explore their creativity as players and deck builders, allowing them to play aggro, midrange, control, combo, greed, and mill strategies and so on. I want to see Hearthstone return to that, and right now The Demon Hunter Effect is holding almost all of this back. It's holding seven classes off the ladder and by breaking the rules of the game of Hearthstone, Demon Hunter has effectively broken Hearthstone.

    submitted by /u/Zeddy44
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    I've seen all your posts about DH's balanced cards, so here's mine

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 12:45 PM PDT

    An updated image of Gul'dan after the release of Ashes of Outland

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 10:57 AM PDT

    Al'Akir had the last infinity stone from the beginning!

    Posted: 28 Apr 2020 11:19 PM PDT

    Destroying ALL of the Opponents Mana -- Mana Burn Combo!!

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 03:20 AM PDT

    Why number on face only go down right now? Me want number go back up.

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 06:32 AM PDT

    Only neutral healing card of note is blue-green 3/3 man. Blue-green 3/3 man slow. Potion gnome have bad stats, killed by blind man. Voodoo Doctor also killed by angry blind man he's trying to counter. No want give Rogue strong healing option with infinite discovery knowledge but right now control CANNOT because no healing. They cannot.

    Class healing also bad. Smarmy blonde man have decent healing but smug and mocking nature. Shaman have big mobile fountain that heals after face explodes already. Blind man have strong healing, but he rather break your face than heal his. All other classes in desert.

    Want stronger 1 mana potion lady back. Allegedly no side-effects, great chemistry. Want funnel cakes. Want old machine noises.. No want 3/3 blue-green man proud of vision. Please let face go up again.

    submitted by /u/fireglz
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    We seem to be forgetting demon hunter cards have been in the game since the tutorial was introduced

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 12:27 PM PDT

    Guiding light. Fanart in my beloved Witchwood theme.

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 11:47 AM PDT

    The heart of cards heard my call for the first time

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 03:51 AM PDT

    Got an awesome lethal in Arena today

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 08:00 AM PDT

    Illidan has brought the flame imps under control!

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 02:54 PM PDT

    Thanks... I guess?

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 02:51 AM PDT

    Tavern Brawl this week is... "Brawl Block: Feeling Adventurous?" (April 29th, 2020)

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 09:32 AM PDT

    Description: "Construct a deck using ONLY cards from all Adventures and Descent of Dragons."

    Format: Constructed with cards from Naxx, BRM, LOE, ONIK, GAL (Galakrond's Awakening) and DOD. This will include some strong Legendaries (e.g. Reno 1.0) but leaves out many staples, e.g. from the Basic and Classic sets.

    Reward: one Classic pack for your first win

    History: This is the first time we have seen this specific format, though there have been several "Brawl Block" variants before:

    Good luck & have fun!

    submitted by /u/AintEverLucky
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    "But Sir, that cannon still works! We don't need to throw it overboard!"

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 08:15 AM PDT

    Valdris also ditching warlocks and joining the Demon Hunter class, for having talents that fits their class identity of good card draws

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 01:53 PM PDT

    we all hate this, don't we?

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 04:20 AM PDT

    He was not prepared!

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 11:31 AM PDT

    I was curious about Fireside Gatherings and saw this tip on the side

    Posted: 28 Apr 2020 06:55 PM PDT

    This is class identity /s

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 03:19 PM PDT

    Unlicensed Apothecary should be reprinted as a balanced card.

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 03:36 PM PDT

    Silver Boi finally getting the buff he needed

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 02:31 PM PDT

    Can we have a Complaint Flair

    Posted: 29 Apr 2020 12:52 PM PDT

    I would love to hide all constant posts of this never ending negativity toward the game

    I can't tell you how tired of seeing: Demon hunter OP NERF!!!!!!!, Meta is the WORST meta ever, and Fuck blizzard they ruined hearthstone. Ever since this expansion started, this has been the most negative i have ever seen this subreddit. its almost as bad as the actual blizzard forums where every other post is GAME IS RIGGGED or FUCK ROUGE.

    I don't know if its just me or if the people from the forums have taken this place over.

    submitted by /u/Logmener
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