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    Hearthstone Nice. I just beat the game!

    September 05, 2020

    Hearthstone Nice. I just beat the game!

    Nice. I just beat the game!

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 05:44 AM PDT

    "Created By" Isn't An Interactive Mechanic

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 06:50 AM PDT

    Hey all, J_Alexander back again to talk about how card generation mechanics are some of the least interactive ones in the game, as they currently exist.

    I'm sure many of you are thinking that mechanics like "charge" or "stealth" are less interactive, right? Allow me to convince you otherwise by thinking about what it means to interact with something meaningfully.

    It's an all-to-common scenario to be playing a game of Hearthstone, feel like you have everything wrapped up, and then having the rug pulled out from under you by some cards carrying the words, "created by" under them. It can feel truly awful to deal with and leave you feeling like there wasn't much you could do about, or learn from, the experience.

    We've all been there before.

    To be clear upfront, I am not not saying that playing with card generation isn't (or can't be) skill-testing. Sometimes it can be, sometimes it might not be, like many other cards and effects in Hearthstone. Navigating your way through a bunch of random resources successfully can involve a lot of decision making.

    What I am saying, however, is that, to the extent lots of random card generation is skill-testing, it's mostly skill-testing for the player generating the cards. When you generate cards, you have all the knowledge. You can pick them when discovery is an option; you can plan for how you're going to use them in future turns; on the most basic level, you know what the cards you made are and what your new range is. The person doing the card generating is very much in the driver seat of utilizing their skills.

    But what about the opponent? That player is much more in the role of a passive recipient. Knowing the range of an opponent's deck has always been a skill-testing aspect of the game, but when that range begins to include some number of new random things - from almost none to approximately a full additional deck's worth - that skill set can be correspondingly constrained.

    If you know what decks you're likely to face on ladder, you can build a deck to counter the meta. This is possible for mechanics like Stealth (non-target damage effects) or Charge (Taunts/Heals). On the other hand, it's not particularly possible to build a deck that counters lots of random card generation because, well, it's random. You don't know what you'll have to counter. While you can try and counter a deck's main game plan, you cannot counter the random elements of it nearly as well.

    Similarly, if you know what you're likely to face on ladder, you can play around opposing tools and properly utilize your resources. However, it's also not particularly possible to play around lots of options that could be created over the course of a game, as playing around one option often means playing into another. When options for creating even 1-cost spells can be as wide as, "Deal three random damage" to "Add 10 random spells to your hand," that doesn't leave nearly as much room for utilizing your understanding of matches on a game-to-game basis.

    If you're creating a lot of stuff, then, this leaves the opponent very much in the position of, "Guess I'll just ignore the fact that random cards exist, make my best play with the knowledge I do have about their deck, and hope it works out" because that's about all they can do. It's usually the win-rate maximizing play, anyway. Just play around the standard range of the opponent's deck, and hope you don't randomly get punished by an AoE or some burst damage they don't start the game with access to. After all, playing around a potential random AoE effect when their deck naturally contains none can play into random single-target removal instead. Since there's often no good reason to assume a random spell might be an AoE, or burst, or single-target removal, the correct play can be to play around nothing.

    This is the core of what makes the "created by" mechanic non-interactive: it's something that one player does and gets to think about, while it's something that happens to the other player. Skills in deck building and meta knowledge get circumvented. The more things get created, the larger the range of created by things, the less interactive the mechanics become.

    It doesn't have to be this way, of course. Not that discover needs to be changed, but here are four possible ways discover effects could work:

    • The opponent sees neither the options nor the choice (like now)

    • The opponent see the discovered card

    • The opponent see the options offered

    • Opponent see both the options and choice

    All these options have different implications for how games play out, how interactive the mechanic is, how skill testing it is, its power, and how exciting/frustrating/satisfying it can be. They're definitely things to think about.

    Now in recent interviews, Iksar has suggested that the "created by" meta is at the peak of what we could expect to see, and we should expect it to be confined to certain classes more moving forward, in an effort to make it feel like more of a class identity.

    Regardless of whether we want to consider "random" an identity or not, simply confining the mechanics predominantly to one or a handful of classes (like Mage, Rogue, and/or Priest), doesn't fundamentally do anything about how non-interactive it can be. It just might mean those classes gain reputations for being frustratingly random at times when they make opponents feel like they couldn't reasonably plan for what happened during the games.

    With that in mind, I also wanted to look at some common points made in favor of the created by mechanic, and why players feel it is good for the game.

    • "Created by" card generation makes games feel different

    For me, this is not particularly true. When a game is decided because of a Lackey making a spell for lethal, I don't feel like the game was lost to that spell; I feel like the game was lost to the Lackey/Miscreant (or whatever made the lackey). When a game is lost to a flurry of mage generated cards, I don't feel like I lost to a Flamestrike; I feel like I lost to a Mana Cyclone (or whatever made the Flamestrike).

    As the generator cards are always in these decks, games against them don't end up feeling very different. It more feels like the same game as usual against the archetype (as the broad game plans are generally similar from match to match), but now I'm taking that typical match and also rolling the dice to see if something I shouldn't have been playing around or anticipating in the first place ended up punishing me.

    While the created by cards might make games feel different for the pilot of the deck, it's not clear that feeling translates as well to the opponent.

    • "Created by" card generation is good for Free-to-Players

    The idea here is that many players don't have full collections and can't play with the cards they want. These cards that make random cards are good for that type of player because it lets them play with cards they otherwise wouldn't have. While that much is true, that's more a criticism of how expensive Hearthstone is for some players. Saying random generation is good for players without many cards is more using the mechanic as a justification for the current pricing model of the game.

    If players had access to better collections for less time/money, they would actually be able to play with more cards they wanted, rather than random ones.

    • "Created by" is simply fun to play with

    And that's totally fine if you like it. There's no doubt that a certain group of players really does enjoy just logging into a card-based casino and rolling the dice a few times to see what wacky things happen. Those players should absolutely be catered to and supported. For that purpose, there is the entire game mode of Tavern Brawl, for instance. Just some casual fun.

    That said, if ranked ladder is more your thing but you still want tons of randomness in your games, the odds are likely good that winning games isn't as high a priority. In that respect, cards that make random cards could be made at power levels that simply leave them not particularly competitive. That way, players can use lots of cards that make random things happen if that's their jam, but it does less to take away from the players looking to have more interactive, competitive experiences.

    submitted by /u/Popsychblog
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    More people would play Arena if Blizzard actually cared about the format.

    Posted: 04 Sep 2020 07:17 PM PDT

    Every patch there are a bunch of Battlegrounds updates, which is awesome. People enjoy the format.

    But what ever happened to Arena having regular rotations and balance patches? It's been totally forgotten, which is very disappointing. Arena players aren't even asking for the world here; just for Blizzard to do what they promised they would do.

    submitted by /u/UltimaterializerX
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    Another Attempt at Hearthstone Art!

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 12:11 PM PDT

    Deck Name Thread! What are your most creative deck names?

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 07:10 AM PDT

    All three Battlemasters played with golden Bran... Among all the other stats before that lol.. Enjoy

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 02:48 AM PDT

    Top Cards of the Week from r/CustomHearthstone (09/05/2020)

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 09:57 AM PDT

    Wild Pyromancer's AoE animation causes the torches on the Scholomance Academy board to brighten. Sorry if this was already a known fact.

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 01:30 PM PDT

    Thanks

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 10:03 AM PDT

    Lore of Legendaries: Scholomance Academy

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 11:40 AM PDT

    My huawei when i play bg for too long

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 12:12 PM PDT

    What is the portrait with mecha jeraxxus supposed to be when completing story ashes of outland solo adventure?

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 03:49 AM PDT

    Amazing! Like me!

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 11:32 AM PDT

    Embiggen.

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 05:32 AM PDT

    Just your average match of Monopoly, Mario Kart or FIFA

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 01:49 PM PDT

    With my disappointment of no dungeon run this expansion and the nerf on Power Word: Shield I decided to have some fun with the first boss

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 11:14 AM PDT

    Finally, Arthas will seek redemption in my deck!

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 12:24 PM PDT

    For me as a viewer, Languagehacker "wins" the tournament

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 10:52 AM PDT

    I just wanted to use reddit to give Languagehacker some public kudos.

    From the tournament matches I have seen, he has very expressive play, and is by far the most gracious when he loses.

    He has been sideswiped with some horrendously bad luck, yet continues like a good sportsman.

    submitted by /u/BLHero
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    Sad Warrior is Sad

    Posted: 04 Sep 2020 06:27 PM PDT

    Shadowjeweler Hanar is not fun to play against.

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 06:55 AM PDT

    I would like to start that I don't say that Shadowjeweler Hanar is broken. Its super good but not OP. The problem I find is that its frustrating to play against and doesn't really leave impression that I want to play another game of Hearthstone. In fact I have noticed that after losing to Rogue with this card I typically just stop playing for a while. I hate the card so much.

    One game opponent had freezing trap and a taunt behind it. How can I remove it without a spell? What if I play minion heavy build? And each turn he just kept getting 4-5 secrets until he won the game.

    Or instead offer us a new secret stealer or destroyer. Something that just wipes the 2 mana mood killer.

    submitted by /u/iilyy
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    Other than playing more, what methods did you use to improve your game?

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 10:15 AM PDT

    Title says is all - what do you do to get better? YouTube? Reading? Watching streams? Just playing a ton?

    I've been playing on and off for a couple years now. ~1200 total wins -- I hover around Diamond 5. Haven't done much in terms of watching guides or reading deeply on strategies. Looking to dedicate some serious time to the game and truly get good.

    First post here, thanks for understanding if I'm breaking any rules.

    submitted by /u/longlinerailroad
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    Looking for shotbots

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 04:03 PM PDT

    Hello everyone. Budget player here. I'm looking for shotbots to play in my wild Pally. Since I can't pay for Galakrond's Awakening, any other ways I can aquire them? Are trades available in Hearthstone?

    submitted by /u/Mitsiou4
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    How do I report bugs and stuff?

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 08:48 AM PDT

    Question.

    When I looked for reporting an issue I ended up at Community forum. I could not find the button to post or compose a reply tho. Mobile btw

    submitted by /u/MasterOnyxia
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    Whats the best decktracker for hearthstone?

    Posted: 05 Sep 2020 07:23 AM PDT

    I've been thinking of downloading a deck tracker but I don't know whats the best one.

    submitted by /u/saimaan_larppa_hater
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